Is DBMM Really A Much Faster Game?

Faster Yes Or No?

Following a series of posts in the DBMM Yahoo Group about night attacks and wasted times travelling hundreds of miles and then ending up sitting motionless due to night attacks I decided to examine the recent DBMM results posted on the BHGS website.

I looked at the listed scores and took the median range of 10-15 VP which are various sorts of draws.

Roll Call

http://www.bhgs.org.uk/roll-call---2015-results.html

There were 14 players listed with their 58 scores shown indicating 29 games ?

There were a total of 20 scores in the range of 10-15 VP [10 games?] out of these 29 games making it over 34% of games were draws.

The Challenge

http://www.bhgs.org.uk/challenge-2015-results.html

There were 28 players listed with their best four scores shown indicating 56 games ?

There were a total of 44 scores in the range of 10-15 VP [22 games?] out of these 56 games making it over 39% of games were draws.

So it seems that despite the claim that DBMM gives a much faster game over a third of the results showed that this isn't the case and players can expect a third of their games to end without a decisive result when using DBMM.

I often get a lot of stick if I post comments about the rules on the DBMM Yahoo Group and the moderator would not allow my statistical examination of the above results as he said it would "just inflame things".

One poster accused me of attempting to hijack the thread for my own personal reasons and then proceeded to attack me for only achieving three winning draws in the DBM Challenge to ensure I got a podium place in the last round.

Funnily I never claimed MM players entered tournaments and then only played for draws and most of us enter tournaments to win irrespective of the rules used.

Where does DBM come in to all this? Well I never mentioned DBM and I imagined its a cheap jibe at me for only achieving 18, 19 and 19 in my first three games despite trying as hard as possible to win in those rounds. The Challenge had a much higher proportion of draws than normal, 12 players with 24 games played over four rounds. Taking the range of scores shown as 12-20 VP [16 games?] meaning that 67% ended in some sort of draw.

I looked back at the Roll Call DBM results just to see if there was any pattern there, 9 players with 18 games and 11 games in the same result range - so 61% this time.

Having played Darrell, Andrew and Jer Morgan in the first three Challenge rounds respectively all of them will confirm that I played as hard and fast as I could to win.

My blog of the games below shows how the games progressed.

http://drewjarman.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-bhgs-challenge-dbm-15mm-results.html

I only achieved a podium place because I fought Gareth to destruction and having played him on lots of previous occasions I know hes a very competent player too. Only a spectacularly good result would have given me a podium place and I went for it when a defeat would have given me mid table mediocrity again!

Having attacked Darrell's Spanish ally for 8 bounds in my first game without almost no success, we both kept drawing, it was both frustrating for both of us, whilst Jer’s Spanish ally evaporated in quick succession!

Getting back to DBMM travelling for long distances and ending up playing games where you sit stationary for 45 minutes because of a night attack mechanism prevents you from moving and either getting destroyed as they get into the perfect position with almost no penalty or fighting an inconclusive game must be very frustrating to all concerned. The same can be said for DBM when Dust Storms happen that slow everything down. MM players say that the entire rules should be used warts and all as its what makes the game and whilst playing a friendly at a club I tend to agree because we all want to be tested in our game play. In a time limited tournament setting there is something to be said for the BHGS DBM convention of not playing Time of Day unless both players want to and always playing Weather unless both players agree not to.

Passing comment on night attack mechanisms isn't hijacking things and perhaps some list members should think about the deficiencies in the DBMM rules before making attacks on others whose choice not to use them because in their opinion there are plenty of better rules out there to use for ancient based games but instantly go into "Fan Boy" attack mode because someone else views dare to not agree with their own.

What does come out of this discussion is whilst the DBM player base is much reduced from the Golden Age of "One Game To Rule Them All" in today's fractured gaming community DBMM has signally not taken off to replace DBM in the big tournaments with Field of Glory still dominating most tournament numbers in the UK.

Its usage is patchy around the world with it being none existent in some regions with either DBM or FoG dominating.

BHGS CHALLENGE DBM 15mm Results

2nd Place after a tiring weekends gaming at Oxford Brookes University Wheatley Campus.

This was my joint best competition result ever being placed 2nd and also equalling my highest competition score of 86 achieved at Roll Call in 2014. Averaging 21.5 out of 32 and only 7 victory points behind Dave Madigan.

Congratulations to Dave Madigan who lead from the first round and had an almost unassailable lead from the third round. I checked the scores after the third round and is was mathematically possible for Dave, Chris and myself to have all ended up on 88 points with positions then being decided on count back.  Irrespective of this I am still very pleased with my 2nd place and yet again learnt some more things about a game I have been playing for 20 years.

Thanks to the BHGS for organising and running the event and to John Graham-Leigh for checking the lists.

We should note that John Calvert bought his grandson Dan to his first ever DBM competition, with Dan playing on the Saturday and John on the Sunday. Hopefully we will see more of Dan in the future.

My army list, pictures and brief game reports are below the results tables along with some pictures of other players games.

The full DBM results for each round and final scores.

BHGS Challenge Oxford 20th-21st June 2015
1st Round
Player	Army	Team	Score	Posn
Dan Skinner [Sa] John Calvert [Su]	2/07 Later Achaemenid Persian, 331 BC MM	Mikland	0	12
Table 1 V
Dave Madigan	4/43 Later Hungarian, 1442 AD M	Reigate	32	1
Chris Smith	4/18 Lithuanian, 1435 AD M	Reigate	18	3
Table 2 V
John Vaughan	1/43 Skythian, 313 BC MM	Coltishall Cowards	14	8
Jer Morgan	2/33 Polybian Roman, 202 BC MM	Terrapins	30	2
Table 3 V
John Brooker	3/45 Pre-Feudal Scots, 846 AD MM	Coltishall Cowards	2	11
Kevin Everard	2/78 Late Imperial Roman, 399 AD MM	Coltishall Cowards	18	3
Table 4 V
Gareth Evans	3/72 Communal Italian, 1201 AD M	Terrapins	14	8
Andy Brooker	3/37 Abbasid Arab, 840 AD M	Coltishall Cowards	17	6
Table 5 V
Duncan Thompson	2/80 Hunnic, 408 AD M	Merc	15	7
Drew Jarman	3/43 Khurasanian, 963 AD MM	Essex Warriors	18	3
Table 6 V
Darrell Pearce	2/33 Polybian Roman, 198 BC M	MKWS	14	8

2nd Round
Player	Army	Score	Total	Posn
Dave Madigan	4/43 Later Hungarian, 1442 AD M	16	48	1
Table 1 V
Jer Morgan	2/33 Polybian Roman, 202 BC MM	16	46	2
Chris Smith	4/18 Lithuanian, 1435 AD M	16	34	5
Table 2 V
Kevin Everard	2/78 Late Imperial Roman, 399 AD MM	16	34	5
Drew Jarman	3/43 Khurasanian, 963 AD MM	19	37	4
Table 3 V
Andy Brooker	3/37 Abbasid Arab, 840 AD M	13	30	9
Duncan Thompson	2/80 Hunnic, 408 AD M	16	31	8
Table 4 V
Gareth Evans	3/72 Communal Italian, 1201 AD M	16	30	9
John Vaughan	1/43 Skythian, 313 BC MM	2	16	11
Table 5 V
Darrell Pearce	2/33 Polybian Roman, 198 BC M	30	44	3
John Brooker	3/45 Pre-Feudal Scots, 846 AD MM	32	34	5
Table 6 V
Dan Skinner [Sa] John Calvert [Su]	2/07 Later Achaemenid Persian, 331 BC MM	0	0	12

3rd Round
Player	Army	Score	Total	Posn
Dave Madigan	4/43 Later Hungarian, 1442 AD M	31	79	1
Table 1 V
Darrell Pearce	2/33 Polybian Roman, 198 BC M	1	45	7
Jer Morgan	2/33 Polybian Roman, 202 BC MM	13	59	3
Table 2 V
Drew Jarman	3/43 Khurasanian, 963 AD MM	19	56	4
Kevin Everard	2/78 Late Imperial Roman, 399 AD MM	19	53	5
Table 3 V
Duncan Thompson	2/80 Hunnic, 408 AD M	13	44	8
Chris Smith	4/18 Lithuanian, 1435 AD M	31	65	2
Table 4 V
John Brooker	3/45 Pre-Feudal Scots, 846 AD MM	1	35	10
Gareth Evans	3/72 Communal Italian, 1201 AD M	18	48	6
Table 5 V
Andy Brooker	3/37 Abbasid Arab, 840 AD M	14	44	8
John Vaughan	1/43 Skythian, 313 BC MM	16	32	11
Table 6 V
Dan Skinner [Sa] John Calvert [Su]	2/07 Later Achaemenid Persian, 331 BC MM	16	16	12

4th Round
Player	Army	Score	Total	Posn
Dave Madigan	4/43 Later Hungarian, 1442 AD M	14	93	1
Table 1 V
Chris Smith	4/18 Lithuanian, 1435 AD M	18	83	3
Jer Morgan	2/33 Polybian Roman, 202 BC MM	16	75	4
Table 2 V
Kevin Everard	2/78 Late Imperial Roman, 399 AD MM	16	69	6
Drew Jarman	3/43 Khurasanian, 963 AD MM	30	86	2
Table 3 V
Gareth Evans	3/72 Communal Italian, 1201 AD M	2	50	9
Darrell Pearce	2/33 Polybian Roman, 198 BC M	30	75	4
Table 4 V
Duncan Thompson	2/80 Hunnic, 408 AD M	2	46	10
Andy Brooker	3/37 Abbasid Arab, 840 AD M	13	57	7
Table 5 V
Dan Skinner [Sa] John Calvert [Su]	2/07 Later Achaemenid Persian, 331 BC MM	19	35	12
John Brooker	3/45 Pre-Feudal Scots, 846 AD MM	19	54	8
Table 6 V
John Vaughan	1/43 Skythian, 313 BC MM	13	45	11

POSITIONS AFTER ROUND 1
Player	Army	Score	Posn
Dave Madigan	4/43 Later Hungarian, 1442 AD M	32	1
Jer Morgan	2/33 Polybian Roman, 202 BC MM	30	2
Drew Jarman	3/43 Khurasanian, 963 AD MM	18	3
Chris Smith	4/18 Lithuanian, 1435 AD M	18	3
Kevin Everard	2/78 Late Imperial Roman, 399 AD MM	18	3
Andy Brooker	3/37 Abbasid Arab, 840 AD M	17	6
Duncan Thompson	2/80 Hunnic, 408 AD M	15	7
John Vaughan	1/43 Skythian, 313 BC MM	14	8
Gareth Evans	3/72 Communal Italian, 1201 AD M	14	8
Darrell Pearce	2/33 Polybian Roman, 198 BC M	14	8
John Brooker	3/45 Pre-Feudal Scots, 846 AD MM	2	11
Dan Skinner [Sa] John Calvert [Su]	2/07 Later Achaemenid Persian, 331 BC MM	0	12

POSITIONS AFTER ROUND 2
Player	Army	Total	Posn
Dave Madigan	4/43 Later Hungarian, 1442 AD M	48	1
Jer Morgan	2/33 Polybian Roman, 202 BC MM	46	2
Darrell Pearce	2/33 Polybian Roman, 198 BC M	44	3
Drew Jarman	3/43 Khurasanian, 963 AD MM	37	4
Chris Smith	4/18 Lithuanian, 1435 AD M	34	5
Kevin Everard	2/78 Late Imperial Roman, 399 AD MM	34	5
John Brooker	3/45 Pre-Feudal Scots, 846 AD MM	34	5
Duncan Thompson	2/80 Hunnic, 408 AD M	31	8
Andy Brooker	3/37 Abbasid Arab, 840 AD M	30	9
Gareth Evans	3/72 Communal Italian, 1201 AD M	30	9
John Vaughan	1/43 Skythian, 313 BC MM	16	11
Dan Skinner [Sa] John Calvert [Su]	2/07 Later Achaemenid Persian, 331 BC MM	0	12

POSITIONS AFTER ROUND 3
Player	Army	Total	Posn
Dave Madigan	4/43 Later Hungarian, 1442 AD M	79	1
Chris Smith	4/18 Lithuanian, 1435 AD M	65	2
Jer Morgan	2/33 Polybian Roman, 202 BC MM	59	3
Drew Jarman	3/43 Khurasanian, 963 AD MM	56	4
Kevin Everard	2/78 Late Imperial Roman, 399 AD MM	53	5
Gareth Evans	3/72 Communal Italian, 1201 AD M	48	6
Darrell Pearce	2/33 Polybian Roman, 198 BC M	45	7
Duncan Thompson	2/80 Hunnic, 408 AD M	44	8
Andy Brooker	3/37 Abbasid Arab, 840 AD M	44	8
John Brooker	3/45 Pre-Feudal Scots, 846 AD MM	35	10
John Vaughan	1/43 Skythian, 313 BC MM	32	11
Dan Skinner [Sa] John Calvert [Su]	2/07 Later Achaemenid Persian, 331 BC MM	16	12

FINAL POSITIONS AFTER ROUND 4
Player	Army	Total	Posn
Dave Madigan	4/43 Later Hungarian, 1442 AD M	93	1
Drew Jarman	3/43 Khurasanian, 963 AD MM	86	2
Chris Smith	4/18 Lithuanian, 1435 AD M	83	3
Jer Morgan	2/33 Polybian Roman, 202 BC MM	75	4
Darrell Pearce	2/33 Polybian Roman, 198 BC M	75	4
Kevin Everard	2/78 Late Imperial Roman, 399 AD MM	69	6
Andy Brooker	3/37 Abbasid Arab, 840 AD M	57	7
John Brooker	3/45 Pre-Feudal Scots, 846 AD MM	54	8
Gareth Evans	3/72 Communal Italian, 1201 AD M	50	9
Duncan Thompson	2/80 Hunnic, 408 AD M	46	10
John Vaughan	1/43 Skythian, 313 BC MM	45	11
Dan Skinner [Sa] John Calvert [Su]	2/07 Later Achaemenid Persian, 331 BC MM	35	12

As promised some breakdowns of my four games and some pictures.

My Samanid Army was organised as
C1 23/21/7 Reg CinC
C2/23/21.5/7.5 Reg Sub
C3 4/4/2 Reg Sub [PIP Dump]
C4 15/12.5/4.5 Irr Dailami Ally
65/59/29.5

Game 1 v Darrell's Polybian Romans

C1 21/19/6.5 Reg CinC

C2 18/16/5.5 Reg Sub

C3 8/6/2.5 Reg Sub [PIP Dump]

C4 18/15/5/5.5 Irr Spanish Ally

59/57/28.5

I invaded! Result 18-14 winning draw to me after a lot of inconsequential pushing and shoving between our allies with my slowly getting the better of the Spanish.

Some pictures of other Round 1 games

Game 2 v Andy's Abbassid Arabs

C1 20/19/6.5 Reg CinC

C2 20/17/6 Reg Sub

C3 20/19/6.5 Reg Sub

C4 2/2/1 Reg Sub [PIP Dump]

62/57/28.5

I defended. Result 19-13 winning draw to me as I managed to separate out his supporting infantry from his cavalry which enabled me to use my superior quality and numbers to slowly overwhelm his Arabs.

Some pictures of other round 2 games

Game 3 v Jer's Polybian Romans

C1 21/18.5/6.5 Reg CinC

C2 20/18.5/6.5 Reg Sub

C3 7/6.5/2.5 Reg Sub [PIP Dump]

C4 15/12.5/4.5 Irr Spanish Ally

63/56/28

I defended. Result 19-13 winning draw as my Buyid ally went through his Spanish ally like a hot knife through butter. Jer is one of the best DBM players in the UK and this still manages to intimidate me by just being at the table. I am getting better against him and every time we play I learn things from him. Jer's clever placement of Dunes meant it interfered with my initial command radius until I managed to relocate my CinC so the dunes were not in the way on my far right.

Some pictures of other round 3 games

Game 4 v Gareth's Communal Italian

C1 20/1.5/7.5 Reg CinC

C2 25/21.5/7.5 Reg Sub

C3 24/21.5/7.5 Reg Sub

69/64.5/32.5

I defended. Result 30-2 crushing victory as Gareth deployed on a narrow frontage with a line of steep hills protecting his open left flank but I managed to get a large area of rough going in the centre which forced him to deploy his army either side of it with only limited light troops available to defend the RGo. I deployed my Buyid ally opposite this RGo and pushed forward as quickly as possible. My heavy infantry faced his own infantry with my mounted wings deployed to each flank with the objective of slowing his advance on his right flank whilst I pushed in his centre.

Because this was the last game and there was a slight possibility of me getting a podium place I didn't manage to take any pictures of the other games as I was concentrating on my own game.

I have used this army at five tournaments during the last year and have had generally good results. As promised here's is my full army list.

Challenge DBM 2015 List 400 AP v3.3 [V6Final]

3/43 Khurasanian [MM list] Samanid 927 AD – 999 AD [963 AD]

Dry. Ag 1. Rv, H[S], H[G], Rd, O, E, RGo, BUA, D

[Rv, DH, RH, GH, Rd, O, E, R or SF, G, BUAf, D or G, Oa]

Command 1

1 x CinC Reg Cv S 30 AP

5 x Ghulam Reg Cv S 50 AP

1 x Bedouin Arabs Irr LH O 5 AP

8 x Khurosani armoured spearmen Reg Sp O 40 AP

4 x Khurosani infantry archers Reg Ps O 8 AP [Ps may support Sp]

4 x Khurosani infantry archers Reg Bw O 20 AP

23/21/7 [153 AP] [25%=5.5]

Command 2

1 x Sub-general Reg Cv S 30 AP

5 x Khurosani noble cavalry Irr Cv S 45 AP

6 x Khurosani skirmishers Irr LH F 24 AP

1 x Bedouin Arabs Irr LH O 5 AP

6 x Dailami zupin-men Reg Ax S 27 AP

3 x Dailami archers Reg Ps O 6 AP [can support zupin-men]

1 x Kumajis or other hillmen Irr Ax O 3 AP

23/21.5/7.5 [140 AP] [25%=5.5]

Command 3

1 x Sub-general Reg Cv S 30 AP

1 x Elephants Irr El O 16 AP

2 x Kumajis or other hillmen Irr Ax O 6 AP

4/4/2 [52 AP] [25%=1]

Command 4 – Ziyarid Ally [Buyid 3/58]

1 x Ally-general Irr Ax S 9 AP

9 x Dailami Irr Ax S 36 AP

5 x Dailami archers Irr Ps O 10 AP [can support zupin-men]

15/12.5/4.5 [55 AP] [25%=3.5]

Command 5

6 x Baggage Irr Bg I 0 AP

6/0/0 [0 AP]

Army [400 AP]

65/59/29.5 to break