Been thinking about a historic enemy to fight the French!
I have come up with two possible list options, both using the MM Later Swiss List version.
The first list is:
Later Swiss
[DBMM Version] 1475 AD [Version 1]
Cold.
Ag 4. WW, Rv, H[S], H[G], E,
Rd, BUA
1
x Swiss CinC - Reg Pk S 25 AP
1x
Sub general - Reg Pk S 25 AP
1
x Sub general - Reg Bd X 27 AP
2
x Mounted crossbowmen Reg LH I 6 AP
46
x Pikemen - Reg Pk S 230 AP
7
x Halberdiers – Reg Bd X 49 AP
6
x Handgunners – Reg Ps S 18 AP
10
x Crossbowmen – Reg Ps O 20 AP
6
x Baggage – Irr Bg I 0 AP
74 E/ 66 EE/ 33
To Break – 400 AP
Command 1
1
x Swiss CinC - Reg Pk S
1
x Mounted crossbowmen Reg LH I
23
x Pikemen - Reg Pk S
25 E/ 25 EE/ 9
Dem [7=25%]
Command 2
1x
Sub general - Reg Pk S 25 AP
1
x Mounted crossbowmen Reg LH I
23
x Pikemen - Reg Pk S
25 E/ 25 EE/ 9
Dem [7=25%]
Command 3
1
x Sub general - Reg Bd X
7
x Halberdiers – Reg Bd X
6
x Handgunners – Reg Ps S
10
x Crossbowmen – Reg Ps O
24 E/ 16 EE/ 5.5
Dem [4=25%]
Army Baggage
6
x Baggage – Irr Bg I
The second list is:
Later Swiss
[DBMM Version] 1477 AD [Version 1]
Cold.
Ag 4. WW, Rv, H[S], H[G], E,
Rd, BUA
1
x Swiss CinC - Reg Pk S 25 AP
1x
Sub general - Reg Pk S 25 AP
1
x Sub general - Reg Bd X 27 AP
2
x Mounted crossbowmen Reg LH I 6 AP
30
x Pikemen - Reg Pk S 150 AP
8
x Mercenary Pikes - Reg Pk O 32 AP
16
x Mercenary Pikes – Reg Pk I 48 AP
7
x Halberdiers – Reg Bd X 49 AP
6
x Handgunners – Reg Ps S 18 AP
10
x Crossbowmen – Reg Ps O 20 AP
6
x Baggage – Irr Bg I 0 AP
82 E/ 74 EE/ 37
To Break – 400 AP
Command 1
1
x Swiss CinC - Reg Pk S
15
x Pikemen - Reg Pk S
4
x Mercenary Pikes - Reg Pk O
8 x Mercenary Pikes – Reg Pk I
28 E/ 28 EE/10
Dem [7=25%]
Command 2
1x
Sub general - Reg Pk S
15
x Pikemen - Reg Pk S
4
x Mercenary Pikes - Reg Pk O
8 x Mercenary Pikes – Reg Pk I
28 E/ 28 EE/10
Dem [7=25%]
Command 3
1
x Sub general - Reg Bd X
7
x Halberdiers – Reg Bd X
2
x Mounted crossbowmen Reg LH I
6
x Handgunners – Reg Ps S
10
x Crossbowmen – Reg Ps O
26 E/ 18 EE/ 6
Dem [4.5=25%]
Army Baggage
6
x Baggage – Irr Bg I
I did consider using the Lorrainer version of the list below:
Late Swiss [DBMM
list] Lorrainer
C1
1
x Reg Kn S/I CinC Gen DBE
2
x Reg Kn S/I DBE
1
x Reg Kn I/I DBE
2
x Reg Cv O
10/10/4
C2
1
x Reg Pk S Sub Gen
15
x Reg Pk S
4
x Reg Bd X
2
x Reg Ps S
2
x Reg Ps O
24/22/7.5
C3
1
x Reg Pk S Sub Gen
15
x Reg Pk S
4
x Reg Bd X
2
x Reg Ps S
2
x Reg Ps O
24/22/7.5
Army Baggage
6
x Irr Bg I
Army
58/54/27
399
AP
Generally the Lorrainer option list hasnt performed that well at our club so I have discounted its use for now.
I went for the 1477 AD list option.
Peter turned up this morning with his army which included a Swiss ally, much to my surprise. The army was organised as follows:
C1 22 E/20.5 EE breaking on 7 containing the Reg Pk I
C2 19 E/17 EE breaking on 6 This was a mainly mounted command consisting of a mix of Cv O, Kn S, Kn O and six Reg Mtd Bw O
C3 17 E/15.5 EE breaking on 5.5 [the Swiss ally]
The army totalled 53 EE breaking on 26.5
I invaded and Peter rather surprisingly place a 1.5 FE BUA and fields on his base line. Two 0.5 FE areas of RGo fell to the other flank and I elected to place a 1 and 0.5 FE of H[S]+RGo which fell in the central sectors enabling me to anchor one end of my army on.
I deployed with the two huge pike commands left and centre with the Bd X command holding the RGo to the right flank.
First PiP roll enabled me to charge forward across the table and constrict his command 2 between myself and the BUA. Much ineffectual moving took place and I managed to get between the Swiss Command 3 and Command 1 to turn some supporting pikes away to make control difficult.
My Ps screen clashed with the Swiss Ps and managed to take a few out for the loss of 3 Ps. The Swiss lost two Pk being hard flanked meaning that it was over 25% losses and only 1.5 EE away from breaking.
Peter seemed to be fixated by my wall of pikes and kept throwing his PiPs into command 2 whilst I pushed forward. He managed to run through a couple of mtd Bw heading towards my baggage but then ran out of PiPs.
I took out two Bw with a block of Swiss Pk and started to turn the flank of his Cv line which had fled away earlier after charging my pikes frontally. He then threw them back in fleeing three away but leaving a single element recoiled within contact movement of one of my pike blocks. He finally charged my pikes with his line of knights but ended up recoiling everywhere with one element now sitting partially in the BUA.
We had to call time as Peter had another engagement so I won 6-4. If I had managed another turn we agreed that given the situation the lone Cv and Kn were in that they would have probably been lost next turn and I would have pushed forward into the BUA killing the Kn in front and breaking command 2 and with the losses in the Swiss ally and 4 BUA EE lost for me moving through it would have broken the French.
This was the first time I have used a Swiss army on mass. I learnt two important things, it's not an army for a timid player, you just have to charge forward and hope to crush your enemies before the flanks collapse. Its also not an army to use in a time limited setting against a skilled player who should bee able to skirmish you out of the game.
All in all if was a fun game and a good learning curve for both of us.
Drew
Peter went public today so heres his take on the game which has filled in some gaps.
Well, it was an interesting game for me and I learned a few things. Many years ago I tried to build a French Ordonnance army but used far too many Irr Bw(I) chicken shooters and rheumaticky Bd(I) garrison soldiers. Following the acquisition of DBMM Book 4 I thought I'd give it another go.
My list was dated 1481:
A. CinC Reg Kn(S), 2x Gendarmes Reg Kn(S), 2x Savoyard Men at Arms Reg Kn(O), 2x Ordonnance archers Reg Cv(O), 12 Reg Pk(I), 3x Aventurier crossbow men Irr Ps(O) 20.5 EE Breaks on 7.0
B. Sub General Reg Kn(S), 2x Gendarmes Reg Kn(S), 2x Savoyard Men at Arms Reg Kn(O), 4x Ordonnance archers Reg Cv(O), 6x Mercenary Mounted Crossbowmen, 2 Aventurier crossbow men Irr Ps(O), 2x pioneers Irr Hd(O) 17 EE Breaks on 6.0
C. Swiss Ally General Reg Pk(S), 11x Reg Pk(S), 2x Reg Bd (O), 2x Reg Ps(S) and 1 Reg Ps(O)
15.5 EE Breaks on 5.5
Army total 53 EE Breaks on 26.5
The knights can all dismount as Bd(S) and the Ordonnance archers as Bw(O). And of course the mounted crossbow fight as Bw(O) but march at mounted rate.
I defended and placed a BUA on my right flank to hide my baggage in, supported by command B's 2x hordes and 2x psiloi as flank guards/speed bumps. The only other terrain I put down was some rough going, hoping to disrupt Drew's two huge pike commands (28 bases each - breaking on 10!) As luck would have it, one landed right in the middle of his central sector. I thought this quite good fortune until I realised that Drew could simply anchor his pike blocks' right flank on it!
I deployed CinC's command on the left, Swiss in the centre and the mostly mounted command on the right. Drew deployed both of his pike blocks in his left opposite my mounted command and his blade/skirmisher command in more rough going in the centre to protect his right flank. On his right he deployed just two light horse belonging to the blade/skirmish command. My CinC's command had no target and neither realistically did my Swiss! Outmanoeuvred from the start!
From there it all went pear shaped. The Swiss were initially unreliable but rallied with a six in turn two. I spent most of the game trying to get the CinC's command and the Swiss over to the right to threaten the right flank of Drew's Swiss steamroller which was bearing down on my mounted command. However, Drew skilfully used his skirmishers to delay my march and generally get in the way, so they didn't make it in time.
I sent my mounted crossbow to get round Drew's left flank but was stopped by a pike column detached to bring my troops within tactical move distance, with all the limitations that imposes on mounted infantry. Two bases did get through and headed towards Drew's baggage but I never had enough spare pips to exploit that move. I also sent my Ordonnance archer cavalry in to make spoiling attacks on the left hand pike block but to no avail. So my mounted arm gradually fell back and I left it too late to dismount the knights as Bd(S). Drew was gradually pushing back my right and was also starting to pile up casualties on my Swiss who were at least getting into the fight by now.
As I had a birthday party to attend in the afternoon, we were playing to a time limit of three and a half hours, starting at 9:30 and finishing at 1pm. Three and a half hours seems to be the standard for BHGS competition games. So in a competition I would have survived - just; however, if we had fought to club closing time, Drew would undoubtedly have beaten me hollow at the last.
Lessons learned:
Be more careful putting down terrain which may actually help rather than hinder your opponent.
Deploy in a more concentrated formation (as Drew has noted)
Learn how to use mounted infantry better
Remember to dismount in good time ( or get the hell out of there)
Oh, and tweak the OOB again to balance the commands better.......
Would I use French Ordonnance again? Yes, probably, since the list does seem to have something good to offer if only I could find it. On the other hand, I am quite taken by Drew's list and those massive pike blocks. Hmmm, watch this space....
Regards
Peter
I went for the 1477 AD list option.
Peter turned up this morning with his army which included a Swiss ally, much to my surprise. The army was organised as follows:
C1 22 E/20.5 EE breaking on 7 containing the Reg Pk I
C2 19 E/17 EE breaking on 6 This was a mainly mounted command consisting of a mix of Cv O, Kn S, Kn O and six Reg Mtd Bw O
C3 17 E/15.5 EE breaking on 5.5 [the Swiss ally]
The army totalled 53 EE breaking on 26.5
I invaded and Peter rather surprisingly place a 1.5 FE BUA and fields on his base line. Two 0.5 FE areas of RGo fell to the other flank and I elected to place a 1 and 0.5 FE of H[S]+RGo which fell in the central sectors enabling me to anchor one end of my army on.
I deployed with the two huge pike commands left and centre with the Bd X command holding the RGo to the right flank.
First PiP roll enabled me to charge forward across the table and constrict his command 2 between myself and the BUA. Much ineffectual moving took place and I managed to get between the Swiss Command 3 and Command 1 to turn some supporting pikes away to make control difficult.
My Ps screen clashed with the Swiss Ps and managed to take a few out for the loss of 3 Ps. The Swiss lost two Pk being hard flanked meaning that it was over 25% losses and only 1.5 EE away from breaking.
Peter seemed to be fixated by my wall of pikes and kept throwing his PiPs into command 2 whilst I pushed forward. He managed to run through a couple of mtd Bw heading towards my baggage but then ran out of PiPs.
I took out two Bw with a block of Swiss Pk and started to turn the flank of his Cv line which had fled away earlier after charging my pikes frontally. He then threw them back in fleeing three away but leaving a single element recoiled within contact movement of one of my pike blocks. He finally charged my pikes with his line of knights but ended up recoiling everywhere with one element now sitting partially in the BUA.
We had to call time as Peter had another engagement so I won 6-4. If I had managed another turn we agreed that given the situation the lone Cv and Kn were in that they would have probably been lost next turn and I would have pushed forward into the BUA killing the Kn in front and breaking command 2 and with the losses in the Swiss ally and 4 BUA EE lost for me moving through it would have broken the French.
This was the first time I have used a Swiss army on mass. I learnt two important things, it's not an army for a timid player, you just have to charge forward and hope to crush your enemies before the flanks collapse. Its also not an army to use in a time limited setting against a skilled player who should bee able to skirmish you out of the game.
All in all if was a fun game and a good learning curve for both of us.
Drew
Peter went public today so heres his take on the game which has filled in some gaps.
Well, it was an interesting game for me and I learned a few things. Many years ago I tried to build a French Ordonnance army but used far too many Irr Bw(I) chicken shooters and rheumaticky Bd(I) garrison soldiers. Following the acquisition of DBMM Book 4 I thought I'd give it another go.
My list was dated 1481:
A. CinC Reg Kn(S), 2x Gendarmes Reg Kn(S), 2x Savoyard Men at Arms Reg Kn(O), 2x Ordonnance archers Reg Cv(O), 12 Reg Pk(I), 3x Aventurier crossbow men Irr Ps(O) 20.5 EE Breaks on 7.0
B. Sub General Reg Kn(S), 2x Gendarmes Reg Kn(S), 2x Savoyard Men at Arms Reg Kn(O), 4x Ordonnance archers Reg Cv(O), 6x Mercenary Mounted Crossbowmen, 2 Aventurier crossbow men Irr Ps(O), 2x pioneers Irr Hd(O) 17 EE Breaks on 6.0
C. Swiss Ally General Reg Pk(S), 11x Reg Pk(S), 2x Reg Bd (O), 2x Reg Ps(S) and 1 Reg Ps(O)
15.5 EE Breaks on 5.5
Army total 53 EE Breaks on 26.5
The knights can all dismount as Bd(S) and the Ordonnance archers as Bw(O). And of course the mounted crossbow fight as Bw(O) but march at mounted rate.
I defended and placed a BUA on my right flank to hide my baggage in, supported by command B's 2x hordes and 2x psiloi as flank guards/speed bumps. The only other terrain I put down was some rough going, hoping to disrupt Drew's two huge pike commands (28 bases each - breaking on 10!) As luck would have it, one landed right in the middle of his central sector. I thought this quite good fortune until I realised that Drew could simply anchor his pike blocks' right flank on it!
I deployed CinC's command on the left, Swiss in the centre and the mostly mounted command on the right. Drew deployed both of his pike blocks in his left opposite my mounted command and his blade/skirmisher command in more rough going in the centre to protect his right flank. On his right he deployed just two light horse belonging to the blade/skirmish command. My CinC's command had no target and neither realistically did my Swiss! Outmanoeuvred from the start!
From there it all went pear shaped. The Swiss were initially unreliable but rallied with a six in turn two. I spent most of the game trying to get the CinC's command and the Swiss over to the right to threaten the right flank of Drew's Swiss steamroller which was bearing down on my mounted command. However, Drew skilfully used his skirmishers to delay my march and generally get in the way, so they didn't make it in time.
I sent my mounted crossbow to get round Drew's left flank but was stopped by a pike column detached to bring my troops within tactical move distance, with all the limitations that imposes on mounted infantry. Two bases did get through and headed towards Drew's baggage but I never had enough spare pips to exploit that move. I also sent my Ordonnance archer cavalry in to make spoiling attacks on the left hand pike block but to no avail. So my mounted arm gradually fell back and I left it too late to dismount the knights as Bd(S). Drew was gradually pushing back my right and was also starting to pile up casualties on my Swiss who were at least getting into the fight by now.
As I had a birthday party to attend in the afternoon, we were playing to a time limit of three and a half hours, starting at 9:30 and finishing at 1pm. Three and a half hours seems to be the standard for BHGS competition games. So in a competition I would have survived - just; however, if we had fought to club closing time, Drew would undoubtedly have beaten me hollow at the last.
Lessons learned:
Be more careful putting down terrain which may actually help rather than hinder your opponent.
Deploy in a more concentrated formation (as Drew has noted)
Learn how to use mounted infantry better
Remember to dismount in good time ( or get the hell out of there)
Oh, and tweak the OOB again to balance the commands better.......
Would I use French Ordonnance again? Yes, probably, since the list does seem to have something good to offer if only I could find it. On the other hand, I am quite taken by Drew's list and those massive pike blocks. Hmmm, watch this space....
Regards
Peter
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